Some people just don’t get it. They are so caught up in their own blind ideology they won’t consider alternative views.
I’ve been looking for a reasonably-priced web-based project management system for quite some time, and yesterday I thought I found it: BaseCamp from 37Signals. Problem is, after an email exchange with the founder Jason Fried, they don’t now and won’t ever (he claims) support a visual view of a project in the form of a GANTT chart.
Why won’t BaseCamp ever support GANTT charts? Maybe it’s BaseCamp’s competitive positioning, or maybe it’s because of ideology; based on BaseCamp’s Manifesto, Jason just doesn’t believe in them. From my email conversation with Jason, is seems to be the latter. Plus, isn’t a manifesto ideological by definition?
Why do I need GANTT charts? Because I’m a visual learner and I need a GANTT chart to be able to see the big picture related to a large number of parallel projects that all share resources. I need this so I can keep from missing deadlines when I’m bombarded with almost literally 100 choices for how to spend my time each day. I even proposed I could try to put BaseCamp and DBI Technologies together for DBI to provide optional GANTT charting of BaseCamp projects via DBI’s Solutions::Schedule product, but Jason wasn’t even interested in entertaining the idea, even if someone else was doing the work.
It’s a damn shame to find a product like BaseCamp that does 90% of what I need but, because of IMO blind ideology, its owner Jason Fried won’t even consider adding a feature for which arguably 65% of people would benefit. Jason’s last comment to me was: “Look at it this way… Go use another tool, get the Gantt charts, but miss the other 90%. Which tradeoff is worth more to you?“ The sad thing is, if it were not for blind ideology, it wouldn’t have to be either/or. :-(
42 comments ↓
We all have ideologies. Yours includes an absolute necessity for Gantt charts. Ours doesn’t. We just have different opinions of what is required for good project management.
Jason:
(Please read to the end because I included a proposal)
I’ve been desperately trying to find a way to manage the production of our of How-To-Select Guides without missing deadlines. I’ve felt overwhelmed by the process, but communications among the team hasn’t been an issue because most of what we do is work in parallel, i.e. ad sales doesn’t need much interaction with editorial, we just need to all meet the same deadlines. It wasn’t until I put everything in MS-Project and was able to print out a GANTT chart that I was able to finally "see" it all and reduce my anxiety. I may not be particularly bright, but I have learned different people process information differently, and most are visual. I need something visual to comphrend the timeline. If that is ideology then so be it.
BTW, I agree with you that Microsoft has bloatware and MS-Project, even with Project Server, doesn’t meet our needs for a geographically-dispersed collaborative team which is why I’ve been looking for alternatives.
What would I have expected instead and not called it ideology? If you had replied with the following I wouldn’t have viewed it as an ideology: "We don’t really think it is important, but we respect that you need that capability. We are planning a web service API and will consider input from you and/or a third party about what our API needs to provide you so that you will be able to use BaseCamp and still have your other needs met."
Not only were you not willing to listen to my needs and see if there was some way to meet them, you told me what I said I needed didn’t make sense (both implicitly and later explicitly.) You made sure it wasn’t even possible by saying you’d never support it and by closing the door on discussions to have a third party offer the feature.
I definitely understand your reasons for wanting to keep things simple and not trying to do too much. But take a look at SalesForce.com; they give the ability to add on 3rd party features via their API and that allows them to keep what they have to maintain simple plus it gives their customers the ability to meet unique needs without being told "Sorry: not only no, but never."
I’ll make a bet with you. Send a survey to your customers asking if they would like a GANTT chart view, but let me review and suggest changes to the survey before it goes out. We can even send out using our survey tool. If only 1/3 or less of your customers would like a GANTT chart view, I’ll write a public retraction on my blog saying I was in the wrong, and I’ll update the currently blog entry with a link to the new post. If more than 1/3 of your customer would like a GANTT chart view, then you’ll work with DBI Technologies Schedule control to provide a GANTT view of a project and I’ll become a customer. Deal?
P.S. BTW, the main reason I need the view is to be able to see what is due today, tomorrow, this week, this month, and every time after. You could even provide a timeline view. But without such a view of my prorities, I just keep missing deadlines.
Mike, we are listening to you. I traded nearly 10 emails with you today discussing this. We just see things differently, that’s all. We will not be building Gantt charts into Basecamp.
Thanks again for the reply Jason. You have every right not to include it, but it doesn’t stop me from being frustrated that you won’t. You are definitely a new breed of business person; one that may well be the future according to many of your blog posts, but one that I have difficult understanding. Numerous of your BaseCamp customers are pleading for GANTT charting (http://www.basecamphq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=49 and http://www.basecamphq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=652) yet you don’t give any reasons for not including it, just that you don’t want to. My mantra has always been to delight my customers. Forgive me, but I just don’t understand the "No, sorry; never gonna happen" mentality. FWIW.
I would have to agree with Mike here. If you can’t satisfy your customers, someone with a web based simple project management solution that contains a GANTT chart will.
I also feel that there should be some visual features added. Also Laotse once said: "Tell me and I will forget it, Show me and I will remember it, Let me do it and I will understand it!" That’s all.. just a possibility to remember better and to keep focus on very important deadlines.
See http://www.WhyBasecampSux.org
We’re switching to http://www.goplan.org/ as soon as it arrives :-)
Andrew: Cool!
Andrew: What caused you to choose GoPlan?
Though Jason is notoriously polarized and polarizing, his position makes more sense in this situation. Basecamp is a 37signals product built by 37signals with 37signals’ values. The core problem is that your "one necessary feature" is different for everyone and it’s in direct conflict with a stated company goal.
It doesn’t matter if 33% or 60% or 99% of Basecamp users want Gantt charts if 37signals doesn’t want to take the product in that direction. Surely many Toyota drivers would vote for a flying car feature if given the chance; similarly many Starbucks customers would enjoy fruit smoothies; as would many Old Navy customers enjoy buying cheap computers at those stores, but none of these customer wants are within the stated scope of the respective companies’ goals.
37signals provides the customer with its idea of an adequate project management tool and a complete API to go along with it. This way, the core product solves 90% of users’ needs most of the time and developers can try filling in the last 10% (always a different 10%, mind you) with applications built on top of the API.
If this were Microsoft instead of 37signals and Bill Gates were refusing to add a feature to a product that enjoyed user lock-in and market dominance without an open API, the answer would be entirely different.
My suggestion is to take Basecamp at face value and build upon it if it makes sense or choose another product if not. Plenty of us get by fantastically with just the core of Basecamp.
Brad: Thanks for the comment.
"It doesn’t matter if 33% or 60% or 99% of Basecamp users want Gantt charts if 37signals doesn’t want to take the product in that direction. Surely many Toyota drivers would vote for a flying car feature if given the chance; similarly many Starbucks customers would enjoy fruit smoothies; as would many Old Navy customers enjoy buying cheap computers at those stores, but none of these customer wants are within the stated scope of the respective companies’ goals. "
You are comparing apples and oranges. People buying Toyotas know the cars don’t fly before they buy them. Starbucks customers can go to Smoothie King and for that smoothie but still get their coffee at Starbucks. Old Navy customers can still wear their clothes while using computers from CompUSA.
OTOH, Basecamp markets their product as meeting all project management needs when in reality it only meets a small subset of project management needs (i.e. the needs of a web development shop building client’s websites) because of their ideology. So when customers sign up, they don’t know any better and then they become locked in which can cause projects to fail (I speak from experience) and possibly even companies to fail. Something I feel strongly about, which I’m sure is controversial, is I believe companies have a moral obligation to their customers, and I think 37 Signals is failing in that regard. For products where the attributes are obvious (cars) or where there is no switching cost (beverages and clothing) this is not an issue. But look at people’s response to Microsoft and their lock-in. If people could switch w/o pain few would hate Microsoft.
The problem with Basecamp and 37 Signals’ ideology is that they present themselves as customer-friendly, gain customer’s confidence, and then betray a large segment of those customers by not addressing their legitimate needs. It’s my belief that companies have the right to choose their direction, but they are acting immorally if they negatively affect a significant portion of their customer base when it is in their power to do otherwise.
"37signals provides the customer with its idea of an adequate project management tool and a complete API to go along with it. This way, the core product solves 90% of users’ needs most of the time and developers can try filling in the last 10% (always a different 10%, mind you) with applications built on top of the API."
For at least six months after I wrote this post there was no API, and for at least another six months the API could not add a project. Instead of addressing Basecamp customer’s needs with an API in a timely fashion, they launched other products. Oh, and by the way, it’s not acceptable to require customers to implement core functionality needed by a majority of customers.
"If this were Microsoft instead of 37signals and Bill Gates were refusing to add a feature to a product that enjoyed user lock-in and market dominance without an open API, the answer would be entirely different."
Why is it acceptable for a company to have an attitude that they aren’t going to address "existing" customer needs? Being smaller shouldn’t give a company a pass for leaving their customer’s high and dry.
"My suggestion is to take Basecamp at face value and build upon it if it makes sense or choose another product if not. Plenty of us get by fantastically with just the core of Basecamp."
I am; their face is that of a company that views its own whims as being more important than customer needs. I post this so that, hopefully, others who might choose Basecamp and then be negatively affected by their attitude are given an opposing viewpoint before they get locked in, not after.
Please take a look at http://www.letsprove.com another alternative to basecamp for project management software
Or try <a href="http://www.chmuraecon.com/OnStage/">OnStage</a>… decent pm/project portal software.
Can anyone help please and pretty please. I have been comparing all the various different softwares for the last week for my company (15 users). Basically the ideal software for us would basecamp + Gantt - but due to Basecamp’s reluctance to get a Gantt chart in there…I need an alternative. It simple, I m looking for an application that is:
- user friendly (and looks nice)
- gantt chart (ideally interactive) with task dependancy
- ideally somewhere where i can store project templates (as we have a lot of recurring processes)
- an application where on the front page/dashboard i can put our company latest news
- web-based application
- with a forum/discussion board that I can use as a knowledge management tool
- (document sharing ideally).
Now if I could get this I would be super-duper happy!! If I could get the above with a PERT feature I would be extatic!! But I m not dreaming.
After reviewing over a hundred software here is where I am at:
- Hyperoffice is not bad but a shame i find to split personal/group features and no interactive Gantt chart
- Project 360 is not bad but am not sure they have got Gantt chart
- Tasland has all the features but is not userfriendly and very slick
- SimplyPM is probably the best but it would require some changes on our server that I am not keen on
- Letsprove VO - am finding out if they have Gantt and if I can customise front page to have news section - if they do this could be the best
- Worksmart seems also good but am not sure if I can have a latest news on the front page…
Can anyone help to recommend what would work…this woudl really really be appreciated because I am really at lost here!!!
THANKS A MILLION!!
<i>I am; their face is that of a company that views its own whims as being more important than customer needs. I post this so that, hopefully, others who might choose Basecamp and then be negatively affected by their attitude are given an opposing viewpoint before they get locked in, not after.</i>
Does Basecamp really lock users in. It looks like they allow an export in XML:
<i>You can export your messages, comments, to-do lists, milestones, and time tracking data in XML format. We also offer an API that allows you to access your data from other tools that you use or create.</i>
Am I missing something here?
Basecamp does give you an XML export. I believe there are also 3rd party tools that use the basecamp API to do the export. It is just a pain transferring that into any other system. When I’d finally had enough with basecamp and 37s, that is one of the I went with OnStage Project Portal - http://www.OnStagePortal.com. I emailed their customer service and they were able to import the basecamp XML for me.
Jason seems to be missing one simple point: user choice. The more choices the product gives to users, the bigger the chance the product will have to gain acceptance. Not providing gantt charts, or at least task dependencies and project time estimations based on those dependencies, hurts their product. I’m not sure why they wouldn’t provide it. Even if they themselves don’t like them, doesn’t mean there aren’t others that do. And the mindset that he has: “Use us for 90%, or go someplace else and only get 10%” smacks of arrogance seen only in the likes of Microsoft.
Too bad. I did like Basecamp’s initial features, but the lack of gantt charts, time estimation, critical path, etc, makes Basecamp nothing more than a glorified to-do list, which is NOT project management. I’ll look elsewhere….
@Andrew: Great comment. Of course, I clearly agree… :)
Hi all,
Check out PlanningForce at http://www.planningforce.com/ . Hope it offers what you are looking for with Gantt charts and lots of other stuff for PMs…
This debate does not appear to be over a matter of ideology - it seems to be over the fact that Basecamp is not project “planning” software when some of us wish that it was. I was in the process of comparing project management solutions and realized that I, similar to Mike, was also looking to have project planning functionality. From what I have gathered through my searches, Basecamp can not produce useful Gannt charts because it lacks the concept of constraints/predecessors. It is simply not feasible to generate a critical path analysis, or a useful Gantt chart without this functionality.
Basecamp has obviously been accepted in the project “management” community, but now we, part of this community, are requesting more. It becomes a matter of will 37 signals supply our demand, or will we have to look elsewhere?
Until there is a company that offers a web-based project management and planning software solution, I will use Basecamp (because it is so pretty! and good for communication and time tracking) along side Microsoft Project. However, when a solution that offers project management in as simple interface as Basecamp but also offers me the capability to enable project planning (hidden to project stakeholders that do not wish to be bothered with planning), I will migrate to that solution. 37 solutions… or competition, opportunity is knocking!
My opinion is that basecamp position is incorrect.
Off course, they don’t like gantt or even anything that visually simplifies the understanding of a big project, but, why don’t offer it althought you don’t like it?
I mean, offer gantt and let the people decide to use it or not.
As much functionalities it has, more people will use it, it’s easy.
Two things:
1) Reading about the attitude of 37s triggers rings several warning signals. I would not choose them as a supplier, despite the fact that otherwise they might have a quite cool product portfolio. When I work with a supplier I want to see cooperation because it is an insurance towards a dynamic world. When the envinronment changes the software has evolve and the supplier must be willing to improve the product. If they start by saying that the product will NOT EVOLVE, how can we manage the future?
It is better to choose another supplier right away.
2) The kernel of these tools is to integrate project MANAGEMENT and project PARTICIPATION. Different people have too look at the same data in different ways, thus the same tasks or activities can be edited and presented either as lists, Calendars, Gantt, PERT charts etc. Undeniably there is a prioritization of features in every product, and 37 have made their choices. But they should be more flexible and sensible on their communication with customers. Gantt charts are very useful!
Not sure if it suits your needs, but Redmine has gantt charts and, more importantly, is open source. I found over the past week that it didn’t have certain graphing that I wanted, so I build a plugin and that was that. :)
Basecamp clearly sucks in this matter. It is a showstopper for our organization.
@Mike: What doy currently use for PM?
@Jebac - Not currently using anything (I’m no longer in my prior role that needed it.) I have been using Unfuddle in my current role, but only because of its SVN support.
Basecamp, and a lot of other web based systems are more project collaboration systems rather than project management systems. And when you think of it, one’s expectations of what a project management system should do are based on what one has seen earlier / elsewhere.
I believe a project’s success is more determined by the communication levels in the team, than any tools.
At the same time, I agree we need reporting and planning tools!
And that is the need we feel! We build planning and reporting tools for activeCollab and Basecamp. PlannerX - our flagship product for Basecamp allows planning projects 5 times faster with a new outliner view, and YES, it even has a Gantt chart view of your project plan!
Invite you to give it a try!
Our ideology is to keep things simple, but give customers what they need!
I’ve been intrigued by the ongoing conversations here and elsewhere related to Basecamp and the 37Signals philosophy. I find I am torn. On the one hand, Basecamp is insanely simple to use for my teams in and outside of my IT group. I don’t have to do any training and adoption happens more organically then with other apps. So, for collaboration and communication, I give them a thumbs up.
For actual project management, however, they remain weak. While I appreciate the idea that there are too many bloated apps out there, there are certain core elements to project management that should be in any project *management* app as baseline: such as tasks that can be tracked by duration or dates (which are NOT milestones), task dependencies and some sort of visual representation or reporting element. And dare I suggest some sort of export to a basic file format like .txt or .csv for use with other apps?
What would be nice for me is if 37Signals took their simplicity in design approach to create an actual project management app that includes features that are commonly shared in the project management community. I’m sure there are many that would willingly support such an endeavor. Still keep it simple, keep out the clutter that shows up in the more feature bloated PM apps, but provide a solution to the project managers who truly appreciate the benefits of 37Signals’ philosophy. I’m sure the best of both worlds if possible.
That being said, knowing 37Signals philosopy, I won’t hold my breath. Instead, I find I am looking for integrated apps that will provide these features so I can retain the collaboration piece. But let’s be clear, a project collaboration tool is not the same as a project management tool.
I could not agree more with Mike. Whether it is the lack of Gantt charts or export of data to excel or reporting - BaseCamp needs to grow up, and not just the product.
We have a lot of time in training and setting up BaseCamp and now find that missing basic tools like getting my data out of the database in a useful format - is not possible, even with the available add-ons.
I can not send my clients a project overview, completed task report, or any data related reporting. Add-on’s to BaseCamp do not help either.
I hired a programmer that thought the same way as Jason. Some kind of 20’s immature self-important line of thinking that is prevalent in the US. Now in India you have a group that can not afford to act cool and trendy, and actually do a job: http://www.deskaway.com. Not bad product, cheap, not exactly what I need though.
So Mike, what are you using now?
@Cal Thanks for the comments. Of course I definitely agree with you! :-)
Your timing is also impeccable. I recently decided to launch a website called PM-Sherpa to showcase all the different options to Basecamp (as well as giving Basecamp equal time itself, just to be fair.) You can see the full list of Basecamp Alternatives in addition to DeskAway here at:
http://pm-sherpa.com/features/basecamp-alternatives/
As for what I use, well the irony is I haven’t been running a project where I was in the position to specify such a tool since my fateful days with Basecamp. BTW, I recently used Basecamp while working on a client’s project, it was still a pain to use, and it really hasn’t changed much in all this time.
Thanks for the website!
Basecamp provides an API, write your own. :)
So basically, according to @John_Barker, if I go to McDonalds and want a hamburger I should have to cook it myself? Doesn’t make sense to me for things that most people need. APIs are great for integrations, shouldn’t be the excuse for lack of critical features.
BTW, at the time I wrote this (and probably still) their API couldn’t do what was needed anyway because I considered doing it.
Hey Mike, I’ve been using Basecamp recently and I definitely agree with your sentiments. I’m not looking for something that just lists out milestones, I’m looking for something that visually shows my workload/how many projects I’m juggling on any given day — basically Gantt chart functionality. I’m currently trying out the beta version of a project management tool called Stacks and it’s looking promising: http://usestacks.com. Maybe it would work for you?
URL’s not working with the sentence period. Let’s try again…
http://usestacks.com
@ChrisStrom: Thanks for the comments. I’ll check out Stacks, but more importantly I’ll add to my list of related tools on a site that I have since built because of my frustrations with Basecamp called PM-Sherpa that lists many a Basecamp alternative.
Hello Mike
Email me directly and I’ll get you signed up as a user in our private beta. Stacks and Basecamp are very different tools. I think Basecamp has it’s place for client communication but Stacks is more oriented around internal team collaboration. Thanks for putting us on the alternative list and I look forward to signing you up as a beta tester.
Thanks
George
Cool — I’ll have to check out that website.
Problem is, the basecamp alternatives I tried via pmsherpa were lousy - clunky, ugly, slow, and several demos crashed as I was using them - the quality is just not there. If you’re staking your company’s reputation (or your own professional reputation) on your PM tool, BC is the best bet. Plus, it’s a great value and allows unlimited users.
And relax, Mike Schinkel! :)
@Extensioner - Care to name those specific Basecamp alternatives you tried? Given that I have advertisers on that site I don’t want to call out specific ones but I’m thinking you might just be a troll, maybe even a 37 Signals employee? I get numerous emails from people who thank me for the site and tell me how much better some of these other tools are.
So please name names of the sites that you don’t like and for which you think Basecamp is better.
Nope, just one man’s opinion. I’m not going to trash any struggling companies either, but I use BC and really like it. Remember, most of these PM tools are designed for companies without full-time project managers. If you need a gantt chart, create one.
To clarify: is your only problem with Basecamp the lack of Gantt charting? Doesn’t seem a big enough deal to spend this much time and energy trashing them.
@Extensioner: Sigh.
It’s not the lack of GANTT tool that had me complain, it was their attitude that they knew better what I needed than I. I documented the MANY issues on a site which I have since redirect to PM-Sherpa.com (I decided to stop running a bitch site and wanted to be positive instead.)
You either have not run into need that they don’t support or you like being treated as if you were ignorant by your vendors (you are a web design shop, right? That’s what Basecamp is good for but not much else.)
When I wrote this post I was trying to manage 20+ projects all with the same tasks but different subjects and there was no API for us to “build it ourselves.” 37 Signals was dismissive of our need (and well as the need of *many* others) and that is what incensed me.
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